For those of your who have experienced re-absorption of follicles prior to ovulation, how long does it typically take for a female to go back to her normal
self? My big girl, Sissy, has me completely stumped and a little worried. I was estimating that an ovulation should have happened by the week of Christmas.
Of course, I was away and IF she ovulated during that time I wasn't here to see it. She should have gone into a pre-lay shed about two weeks ago and
didn't. Males have zero interest in her, she's bluer than ever, basking, looking plump, and having nothing to do with food. After laying her last
clutch she went back on food no problem within a few days. She's a chow hound. She first refused food 11/18/07. If she never ovulated and the follicles
were absorbed, how long should I expect to see her still think she's pregnant? Should I be worried about retained eggs at this point if she did ovulate?
I'm stumped! I'm tempted to take her in for x-rays.
Input, please. My own confusing female!
| Author | Comment | ||
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 Kim Burge |
Input, please. My own confusing female! |
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(02/11/08 16:14:28) ezOP |
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greg stephens2 |
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(02/11/08 16:20:59) |
Kim,
A vet visit is never a bad this and you may want to ask for an ultra sound over the x ray. Do you have any pics that you could post in a time line? Or even just a pic of what she looks like now. Best of luck!
Greg Stephens
gstephens_1@clearviewcatv.net I lost JB's watch!!!!! I have big steel pole envy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I was told ,"By the way.........plastic is plastic - I've been in the cancer field for 20+ years now and I've never had a patient get cancer from burning plastic!" I had to ask my self what was this guy thinking!! 
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hylarls |
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(02/11/08 17:02:11) |
Hi Kim- I had a "girl" ovulate the day after Christmas, she just laid eggs yesterday.Her prelay shed was on Jan. 26th. I'm not sure how long you
were out of town but you are still in the window. I would give a little more time before taking her to the vet. Has she every skipped her prelay shed before?
Robin
"If it is wet and not yours...don't touch it!! ~ Lecture on zoonotic diseases |
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Kim Burge |
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(02/11/08 18:10:36) ezOP |
I was gone Christmas day through Friday evening. Last time it was difficult to tell when she ovulated because she grounded herself. She's a very big girl
but the last meal she ate was 10/24/07 and she has defecated since this. She shed fine for me last time she laid in '06 and I know she shed before her
first clutch in '04 because her previous owner told me it was a bad one.
I've only taken a few pictures of her during this breeding. 1st one was during the first couple of weeks of breeding. This was taken in the dark and the camera didn't read her color quite right. 
This is her just after going off food:
Last Edited By: Kim Burge
02/11/08 19:18:08.
Edited 1 times.
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Kim Burge |
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(02/11/08 18:32:36) ezOP |
In trying to decide about taking her into the vet with my on Wednesday, I thought of another question. If we ultrasound her and find eggs what does that tell me? Should I assume that they are retained or that she just hasn't laid them yet and I'm off on my timeline? How do you know the difference? |
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hylarls |
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(02/11/08 19:06:01) |
Hi Kim- My female laid (2/10) 20 days after her prelay shed. Several folks have suggested that females can lay sucessfully up to 30 days after the prelay shed,
adding the three days after Christmas (assuming she ovulated that week) you still have 12 days where she safely in the normal time frame. You may want to ask
your vet on the phone your questions and what he suggests. I had an experienced reptile vet ultrasound 1 of my females last year and tell me he saw nothing,
no follicles, eggs etc. less than a month later she laid good eggs, apparently her time line and mine were totally different and the vets ultrasound skills
needed some work. My fingers are crossed for you and Sissy.
Robin
"If it is wet and not yours...don't touch it!! ~ Lecture on zoonotic diseases |
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Kim Burge |
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(02/11/08 19:26:50) ezOP |
Thank you, Robin, for your input on this situation. I hadn't heard the suggestion that females can lay up to 30 days post shed. That makes me feel a bit
better. I really hate to move her right now if there's a possibility she'll pass something on her own. My vet is leaving town later this week until the
25th, so his return would be just past 30 days. I may wait until then to avoid stressing her out but I'll talk with him about it tomorrow.
I know it's not uncommon to hear of chondros not passing all their eggs when they lay. How common is it for female chondros to retain all their eggs and never appear to try laying them? Fingers are tightly crossed! |
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hylarls |
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(02/12/08 06:12:52) |
Kim- I don't have a ton of experience wth egg bound females but I have had 1. 1 of her ova ducts was ruptured so the eggs on that side moved into the body
cavity and needed surgery to remove but she successfully laid the eggs in the good ova duct in the normal amout of time. I know folks that have had egg bound
females, they usaully lay something. Snowcone recently laid slugs and some eggs but couldn't pass the others. Dream laid 1 good egg and couldn't pass
the others. I know of at least 1 female who had 1 super large egg that totally blocked laying but I think if it is physically possible they try to pass
something. Hopefully Greg will chime in again he has more breeding and better vet experience than I do. (I call him or Rico when I'm worried )Sissy is a
big beautiful girl, hopefully you'll be seeing a healthy pile of eggs soon. Keep us posted.
Robin
"If it is wet and not yours...don't touch it!! ~ Lecture on zoonotic diseases |
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greg stephens2 |
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(02/12/08 10:25:46) |
Kim,
I was recommending the ultra sound over the x ray just because I am not sure I believe that x rays are ok for developing embryos. But as Robin pointed out your vet would have to be trained at using and reading the ultra sound to check her correctly. As for females retaining eggs, I have only had one female retain an entire clutch of eggs. She was not sitting quietly on the perch but was out cruising the cage in an obvious attempt to push out the eggs. I had missed this girls ovulation so I am not sure how many days post O she shed. But the night I found her, out trashing the cage was 26 days post shed and 8 days after she had entered the nest box. This situation did not end well at all so I will not describe how it ended. One other thing you could try if she is the easy going type is to take her out and check her out. In my experience egg bound girls have obvious areas that can be felt with the bare hand. <<muliple eggs adhered together or eggs that have adhered to the oviduct wall>> You can also feel eggs with a little patients and practice, taking her out will also allow you to look her over and see if she looks like she is carrying eggs or still just developing follicles. <<Developing folllicles are higher in the body and the are will be sort of stationary vs eggs which should be lower in the body and can move or shift in the body.>> I am not sure which way to tell you, you should go, she may just be off as far as a normal schedule if there is such a thing with chondros. Or she may be getting ready to lay with out a prelay shed. <<Though these animals usualy are creatures of habit and stay pretty close to there prevous reproductive actions and schedules>> I know it can be hard too tell but could she be getting ready to start her shed cycle? <<you know pinkish belly, or dulling colors>> Best of luck and if you can snap a pic of her from strait on instead of the profile that would be killer. She looks huge but it is hard to look for follicle or egg related swelling in a profile shot.
Greg Stephens
gstephens_1@clearviewcatv.net I lost JB's watch!!!!! I have big steel pole envy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I was told ,"By the way.........plastic is plastic - I've been in the cancer field for 20+ years now and I've never had a patient get cancer from burning plastic!" I had to ask my self what was this guy thinking!!
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Kim Burge |
kicking myself now! | ||
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(02/12/08 16:34:53) ezOP |
Well, I thought she had missed her pre-lay shed because I never saw her have it. She's never missed a shed with me but it seems like now she's decided that not bothering to rid herself of her pre-lay shed was the way to go. Thankfully, because Greg mentioned that I should take her out and see if I could feel anything, I noticed the unusual feel to her skin. Normally, I would never bother a basking, pregnant female but I'm sure glad that I did. There was one day when I thought that her eyes looked a bit foggy but it was a quick look and it wasn't there that evening when I checked on her again. I had been soaking her cage down and changing out her water regularly to encourage drinking (which she was doing) in hopes of a shed that never came. I estimate that she should have shed the weekend of the 3rd so I could still be looking at another week before she lays. Do I stress her and attempt to manually shed her? I am worried about putting her in a tub to soak her because she can't thermoregulate as well. I don't like the idea of a stuck she on her but it doesn't even look like she tried so there's not a good starting point. Suggestions? |
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RCulver |
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(02/12/08 16:42:25) Registered User |
Kim-
First I'd like to say I hope Sissy fairs well. Every time I breed chondros, my stomach twists and turns in knots. I was reading the entire thread and was wondering which date (10-24-07....or 11-18-07) was the last time she took a meal? as you mention both dates? I don't like either date when constructing a time line of events. I'm sure you've reviewed her past breeding time line for a reference, right? What were her time of events like in her earlier breedings? As Greg mentioned, chondro do exhibit some variation between individuals, but they usually settle into their own specific time line of breeding events. I have a few questions: Has the male "always" been with the female? even up to this date? or did you remove him once you returned after the Holidays? Has Sissy shed at any time during this breeding cycle? And lastly, what was (and is) your temperature regime? Did you restore NT highs? if so, when with respect to your breding time line? I have only had one female that became severely egg-bound. She laid 4 eggs while trying and then simply could not finish. She had 18 retained eggs from a massive stool blockage from a rat based diet. Once again, although she is not completely out of the laying window......she is beginning to get close. Richy |
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Kim Burge |
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(02/12/08 18:21:08) ezOP |
Sissy only gets fed one sm/med rat once a month and typically defecates before she eats again. The last time I fed her and she ate eagerly was 10/24/07. Just
like last time around with breeding when I went to feed her on 11/18, she struck and seemed interested but never would take it. I don't think she'd
decided to go off food long before this date. She tapered off of food like this last time, too. All the following attempts to feed her have resulted in
hisses and zero interest. The male was removed from her cage on 12/31 after showing no interest in her for a while. I did put him back in her cage for about
a week in January when I started to wonder what was going on with her but he went back on food and continued to ignore her. Her last shed was about 6 months
ago (normal for her). She was only with the male about a month when she refused her first meal on 11/18. She defecated (small amount) right around the time I
suspected a pre-lay shed that first week in Feb.
10/18 male placed with Sissy 10/24 Sissy eats normally 11/18 Refuses but showed a little interest 11/25 Solidly refuses food 12/31 male removed Unfortunately, I didn't note exactly when I restored her temps at night. I kept close tabs on her and when she started to bask I made sure the temps were back to normal. I haven't tried to feel eggs or follicles inside a chondro before but I feel like I probed and felt her up tonight as much as I could through her massive size and I didn't feel anything out of the ordinary. That being said, I didn't feel any eggs either. I didn't feel anything like a blockage or bound up eggs.
Last Edited By: Kim Burge
02/12/08 18:23:56.
Edited 1 times.
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hylarls |
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(02/13/08 07:07:55) |
Kim, that is great news about the stuck shed. It sounds like she is right on target. I have had more stuck sheds in the last couple of months than I can ever
remember even from animals that never have a problem. Could you soak her in a container that would fit in her enclosure so she would stay warm and keep a close
eye on her? I wouldn't worry as much about the stuck shed as wether she is hydrated. Keep us posted.
Robin
"If it is wet and not yours...don't touch it!! ~ Lecture on zoonotic diseases |
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Kim Burge |
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(02/13/08 07:58:27) ezOP |
I guess if there's ever a good time to hear about a stuck shed, this would be it! We've had such dry weather from the ongoing drought that I've had bad sheds even in what I thought were well hydrated snakes. I'm ready for the humidity to return. I feel for those in arid areas of the country. |
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RCulver |
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(02/13/08 10:17:17) Registered User |
Kim--
I'm glad that it seems as if Sissy just has a retained shed! That is promising news. And I'm sorry if I influenced a sleepless night for you. I apologize for that. Keep us posted and I wish you and Sissy the best! Rich |
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Kim Burge |
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(02/15/08 05:12:05) ezOP |
Greg,
Here's that updated picture you wanted to see from the front angle: Sissy basking this morning. 
She tagged along with me yesterday to the vet and was palpated by several people and we all concluded that we didn't feel anything. We made the
decision to hold off on ultrasound for another two weeks. If she starts to look distressed or hasn't laid eggs by then we'll go the ultrasound route
to see what's going on.
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RCulver |
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(02/15/08 09:45:06) |
Kim--
I have always gone by the assumption that during ovulation, ova are being released and then are fertilized and shelled during the 24 to 48 hour event. But then I have heard a number of assumptions on the topic, but have yet to read or see any conclusive study on it. Here's a bit of food for thought---I had one of my females that still looked plump after laying and I was worried about egg retention so I brought her in for an ultra sound.....what they isolated as the bulge was a "gas pocket" adjacent to a soon to be released bowl movement. Rich |
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greg stephens2 |
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(02/15/08 14:44:39) |
Kim Burge wrote: Kim, She looks like there should be some thing <<eggs>> in there imo! As for when eggs are shelled I like Rich have heard a ton of theory's about the entire process. I am of the opinion that eggs are fertilized at or prior to ovulation and are slowly shelled in layers during the 40 days following ovulation. Where you able to get her shed off Kim? Have you looked back to see how many days post ovulation and or post shed she typically lays her clutches? I am sure she will be a chondro and keep you guessing! Best of luck and please post further developments.
Greg Stephens
gstephens_1@clearviewcatv.net I lost JB's watch!!!!! I have big steel pole envy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I was told ,"By the way.........plastic is plastic - I've been in the cancer field for 20+ years now and I've never had a patient get cancer from burning plastic!" I had to ask my self what was this guy thinking!!
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Kim Burge |
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(02/16/08 07:21:18) ezOP |
I wasn't able to get the shed off of her but the vet did agree that she had retained it. He didn't think it would be that big of a deal if it
didn't come off until after she laid. I think it's pretty well stuck and she could use a 24 hr or longer soak because only soaking for a few hours at
a time hasn't helped. With a lay date coming up soon, I'm not comfortable leaving her overnight to soak.
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Kim Burge |
No eggs yet | ||
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(02/21/08 05:48:07) ezOP |
I had images of eggs being dropped from her high perch this weekend so I removed her perches on Monday. She immediately went into the nest box and stayed
there until yesterday morning. She came out, looked around, and went back inside. This morning I found her trying to coil up on the light fixture wire she
managed to dislodge. I'm not sure that this is pre-lay restlessness but the desire to perch rather than coil on the floor. I still have my fingers
crossed because we could still easily be within laying window. She's still acting very quiet and at ease...unlike her owner!
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Mike E Lockwood |
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(02/23/08 15:39:08) |
Kim, I've been following this post and thought I'd chime in. I have one of Sissy's daughters and she has me just as confused as her mother has you.
She looks very similar to Sissy at this point. Just not quite as blue. We're not at a pre-lay shed yet though. I wish you the best with her. Hopefully
you'll be posting the positive resolution soon:)
Mike Lockwood
Too Scaley Reptiles |
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I soaked her for a few hours last night in a heated Rubbermaid. Because
I'm iffy about her laying date, I only kept her in the container a few hours when I could watch her. I will probably do the same tonight for a few hours.
Thankfully, she's such a mellow girl that this doesn't seem to bother her. I have to take another snake in for an appointment tomorrow with the vet
and I'm waiting to hear back if she can tag along and get an ultrasound...just in case. Rich, you got me a little more worried last night! The incubator
is up and running, although, at this point I'm just hoping she makes it through this safely.
