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Parent Pics - Deceptive?

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SpruceNubbleFarm	Parent Pics - Deceptive?	Lead	[-]
Posts: 88 (05/03/07 15:11:04) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Tags : None Hi, Been chatting with a number of long time reptile breeders I know and sharing my opinion on parent pics recently. Bascially I think they are almost deceptive because among reptiles there isn't another python where the child has less chance of looking like the parents than GTP's. Same thing is true in terms of looking like each other on sibling pics - vs the common "clones" in breeding many other types of reptiles. To my mind the real thing of it is that no matter how many times you tell folks that GTP's all look different, you never know, or whatever you say - the presentation of parent pics makes a clear suggestion that there is a correlation between the parents current appearance and the likely appearance of the animals being offered for sale. This is especially ironic for folks that have bred lots of different species of reptiles who are aware of how relatively irrelevant (don't try to say that three times fast) parent pics are with GTP's. While skipping over the ethical problems of presenting pedigrees for an animal for which there is no registry I guess I am curious about other folks thoughts on this. I describe Parent pics as "almost deceptive". How would you describe GTP parent pics ? All the best, Ross Spruce Nubble Farm, Inc. - Green Tree Pythons, Carpet Pythons, Carpondros, Kinkajous, Horses http://www.SpruceNubbleFarm.com 69 Spruce Nubble Road Strong, ME 04983 (207)-684-3539 eFax: (512)-853-3820
MegF42	Re: Parent Pics - Deceptive?	#1	[-]
Posts: 925 (05/03/07 15:41:39) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I have argued this extensively with various people. I still hold to the idea that the parents don't necessarily have even a chance of producing something as spectacular as they were. The designers I think are a little more of an exception as they seem to have far more inbred qualities than taking, for instance, two wildcaught animals. Here's a perfect example of what I mean. Here are the parents of my Biak/PNG animal from Will Bird. Photos of the parents are courtesy of Will Bird. Mother: Biak Father:Biak/PNG animal from Knottsville Zoo Now the baby I bought. I think he/she has far more potential than either parent: Will his/her offspring be as interesting? Who knows! 4.5~Cornsnakes 1.2.2~Green Tree Pythons 1.0~ATB Assorted: Horses, dogs, and cats www.Franclycac.com
Kim Burge	Re: Parent Pics - Deceptive?	#2	[-]
Posts: 1499 (05/04/07 10:38:49) ezOP Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Interesting question. I completely agree that the babies don't always turn out like the parents, but sometimes they do. I see no harm in advertising the parental photos and background lineage with babies being sold. I like to see "proven" looks information from prior clutches or just let us know if it's a first time breeding and you have no idea what they'll turn out like. Besides, everyone always asks to see parental pictures before they purchase. I just think we need to be honest about outcome potential if you know it. Most of the time, at least a few of the babies end up looking like one parent or the other. Kim Burge Southern Chondros kimberly@southernchondros.com
chondroland	Re: Parent Pics - Deceptive?	#3	[-]
Posts: 393 (05/05/07 04:16:36) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Hi: *Quote:* "How would you describe GTP parent pics ?" I wouldn't necessarily describe them as almost deceptive. The word Deceptive indicates the intent to put forth inaccurate information. While I'm sure there are a small minority of breeders that would intentionally mislead to make a sale, I doubt most people breeding GTPs on this (and the other) forum are doing this. But I do agree with you that it's kind of pointless to use images of parents to provide a representation for what some GTP offspring from those parents might look like. It's really no different than being told that the GTP you want to buy eats like a horse, only to find out that when the new purchase arrives it won't eat for you right away, etc. GTPs, being what they are, the new acquisition might have been chowing down with its previous owner. But now that you have it...you have to work on it to get it back on a consistent feeding schedule, etc. Over the last couple of years I have seen some GTPs that have been offered for sale that were the offspring of outstanding parents (in the looks department) yet the offspring looked like your everyday GTP. However, almost everyone requests pics of the parents so if I were breeding GTPs I would show pics of the parents for the benefit of those that prefer to see them. As a somewhat partial solution to the issue of "yes, but what will it look like as an adult", it has long been my intention to hold back all babies I hatch and grow them up so that, when it comes time to sell them it will be fairly obvious what they might look like as adults. The other reason I want to do this is to be able to sell a GTP that can be accurately sexed, etc. With the exception of the people who are serious about lineages, I doubt people would need pics of the parents at that point, or at least they wouldn't mind so much if pics were not available. Stu
SpruceNubbleFarm	Re: Parent Pics - Deceptive?	#4	[-]
Posts: 88 (05/05/07 05:23:50) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	It is interesting that so many folks ask for parent pics - and IMHO the vast majority of them do not understand the genuine relationship like both the of the posters here do. An ad for a sportscar that shows a sexy person sprawled on the hood is reasonable - own a sportscar and get a sexy person of your own is not outrageous. An ad for an ice cream shop that shows a bunch of skinny people enjoying hot fudge sundae's daily - pushing it but maybe they each run 10 miles a day so possible sort of. Cigarette ads are probably a good demonstration of the limit and have in fact been restrcited occassionally in their depections of how wonderful it is to get lung cancer. To my mind all ads are somewhere on this continuum and parent pic ads just make me uncomfy. In combination with a pedigree it gets especially difficult, presentation of a pedigree with no registry is a problem that has been beat to death in other animals to say the least and it has no good outcomes. Is anyone aware of any efforts to create a proper GTP registry so that it would be possible to provide a pedigree (which means third party verified in every animal) ? I guess - to expand this thread a bit - I'm thinking that most breeders, like us here at SNF, are not happy with the way most chondros are sold. The actions of the "reliable folks" community however don't really do anything about it and in fact stand on sort of shaky ground themselves which ocassionally bites us in the ass as it supports the suspect sales. So of course I wonder what efforts cna be taken that would really have an impact and create a better educated public - parent pics sure as heck aren't it to my mind. Anywya - thnaks for the replies, interesting thoughts to say the least. I woudl agree it is just as likely the baby will end up "better" than the parents although that is kind of a fun nightmare for the "I should have held it back" department. All the best, Ross Spruce Nubble Farm, Inc. - Green Tree Pythons, Carpet Pythons, Carpondros, Kinkajous, Horses http://www.SpruceNubbleFarm.com 69 Spruce Nubble Road Strong, ME 04983 (207)-684-3539 eFax: (512)-853-3820
Paul August	Re: Parent Pics - Deceptive?	#5	[-]
Posts: 118 (05/05/07 05:41:02) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Asking for pics of the parents helps to weed out those trying to pass off WC or farmed as true CBB. Also, seems I'm in the minority, I think parent pics can help in determining the potential final look for an unchanged animal. Notice I said potential. Not set in stone. Two heavily mited animals have a good chance of producing mite phased offspring. I'm sure all will not be mited. And a few might even have more melanism than the parents. Meg, If I was a betting man, and I am, I bet at about 3-4 yrs old your animal looks very much like the parents. Paul August
RCulver	Parents and offspring potential	#6	[-]
Posts: 1187 (05/05/07 09:22:26) Registered User Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Paul-- I tend to agree with you regarding Meg's little one. Based on the "pics of the parents" and having reared up numerous maroon neonates, a good majority of baby patterns that hint blue early on as well as "white" vertebral triangles tend to go green by the third year or so. In some cases, "depending on the parents and past genetics" some of the vertebrals may remain and yield soft blotches. Still, with the understanding that chondro clutches exhibit variation--and to some degree, a continuum of patterns and colorations based on genetic paths from previous breedings--such observations can provide an "index" of potential offspring colorations and patterns. Without such knowledge, imho, one is simply aiming in the dark. Line up 10 potential chondro buyers and ask them if they'd like to see pictures of the parents to the offspring and also some pictures of their repsective parents and other offspring, and I would place myself out on a limb and suggest that 10 out of 10 buyers would choose to see pics of past parents and animals. Why? because this information does in fact shed some light to the variability (however slight or pronounced) to the genetic potential of not only the bloodline, but also to the particular pairing itself. Rich C
MegF42	Re: Parents and offspring potential	#7	[-]
Posts: 925 (05/05/07 09:29:15) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	It's entirely possible. Half the fun of it all! We shall see. Never had such an unusual change on one though, where it never got lighter, just stayed dark and then got bright green. It's a fun one to watch though. I think as some have mentioned, the ability to see the parents is part of the "proof" that the animal is not farmed. I don't have history on three of mine and I really don't care a whit though! It will be interesting to see what sort of lil' Chillens' they produce down the line. Better, the same...who knows. 4.5~Cornsnakes 1.2.2~Green Tree Pythons 1.0~ATB Assorted: Horses, dogs, and cats www.Franclycac.com
Brandon Osborne	Re: Parents and offspring potential	#8	[-]
Posts: 147 (05/06/07 10:59:23) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I agree with Paul and Rich. To add though, I think it's a good idea to include siblings produced from previous clutches as an indicator as well. I personally think sibling pics tell more than parental pics. It is a tough call, but parental pics should be provided as good insight. Anyone can buy 100 farmed hatchlings from Bushmaster and raise them up. I've seen all too many farmed animals passed off as "captive bred from a breeder friend of ours." You CAN tell a difference.......especially at 2-3 years old when lots of them die for no reason. Have fun. Brandon Osborne
SpruceNubbleFarm	Re: Parents and offspring potential	#9	[-]
Posts: 88 (05/06/07 11:37:59) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	There is a relationship between the (sort of obvious) turn this thread is taking and the Registry question here: p219.ezboard.com/fmorelia...7541.topic I haven't been selling chondros long enough to offer much that is useful on the fraud problems but can say that having sold reptiles in gerneral for a very long time the fraud is worse than it has ever been - not sure if this is just a pure volume issue or a percentage one but hey - at least gtp's aren't anywhere near as bad as balls. :-) In terms of the indicators idea and the studbook, etc, etc - the reality seems to be that there are lots of small breeders (especially here) who are producing top notch animals but have neither the business or the economic incentive to be able to present those in a verifable way - perhaps those folks are easily selling every animal which would eliminate any motivation to participate. I know many of them aren't and consider it to be very difficult to start and properly market their chondros but of course everyone is influenced by the cash now type motivations. I dunno - the pricing variability has a relationship with supply/demand factors but IMHO it is not fair to say it is "based" upon it - those seeking a "standard" will have trouble finding it. The worst of both extremes exist with people selling animals below true production cost and folks getting huge premiums that others do not get. I mean we all know that in any reptile many different qualities are produced - true in all pet animals - but I don't think we can paint in the big broad defensive strokes and not make some relationship to pricing. LOL - apparently fanciful speculations are in abundance here on the farm today. All the best, Ross Spruce Nubble Farm, Inc. - Green Tree Pythons, Carpet Pythons, Carpondros, Kinkajous, Horses http://www.SpruceNubbleFarm.com 69 Spruce Nubble Road Strong, ME 04983 (207)-684-3539 eFax: (512)-853-3820
Chondrocyte	Re: Parents and offspring potential	#10	[-]
Posts: 6 (05/06/07 19:46:01) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I agree with Rich, Paul and Brandon. Pics of parents add value. It's not farmed or w/c. Sibs help a lot too,I've puchased animals based on the appearance of their sibs.We can't ever guarantee the final outcome of any animal sold as a youngster.Make this understood before making the sale,simple as that.

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